Svetlana Velmar-Janković

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Antoine Masson (boxer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Mass-created LUGSTUB de-prodded by BeannieFan with a vague wave in the direction of a newspaper archive that is not accessible.

There is no credible reason to believe sources exist that would give detail biographical coverage of Antoine Masson. Simply pointing at hits in an archive is not sufficient when we have no idea of their content - "Antoine Masson" is a common name (examples of people with the same name include a prominent 19th century French physicist and a 17th century painter), and even sources that covered the relevant Olympic event would in all likelihood only have covered Masson in passing.

Additionally, this article is a potential WP:V failure: the Olympedia link in the article is for Louis Masson, not Antoine. So what was their name? Was it Antoine or Louis? Or both? Or neither? This appears to be yet another example of Olympedia actually not being a very reliable source. Regardless searches for "Louis Masson" throw up plenty of people who have the same name (e.g., a French politician) but nothing that provides significant coverage of a Belgian boxer. FOARP (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics, and Belgium. FOARP (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• His name is "Louis"; per Olympedia Name previously listed as Antoine Masson, but newspaper reports do not support this. That right there indicates that he was covered in newspapers, and I presented a Belgian newspaper archive with a large number of matches for his name, but oh, apparently we shouldn't check there... BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Waving at X-thousand search results for a common name is not "checking". FOARP (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm saying we need to check there, given we know for certain that newspapers covered him. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  "we know for certain that newspapers covered him" - We don't actually know that, specifically: we don't know that Belgian newspapers ever covered him in detail. If the simple possibility that the name of an Olympian might have been mentioned in a newspaper is accepted as them being notable, then every Olympian would be notable - a proposal that was rejected by WP:NSPORTS2022. FOARP (talk) 15:04, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  We don't know the extent of the coverage, but we know per Olympedia that it exists. That's why we should look in newspaper archives! BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:46, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Olympedia is not reliable, however. Let'srun (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Its widely used and written by a select group of top Olympic historians, and previously the content was on Sports Reference. Are you saying that both SR and Olympic historians such as Bill Mallon are unreliable? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Boxing-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:58, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Note As it’s the same person where all these Belgian newspapers articles are about, the person is notable. 95.98.65.177 (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  How likely is it that more than a few of these hits, are about the Antoine Masson who fought and lost a single match at the 1920 Olympics? And how likely is it that any of them give significant coverage to the subject?

  Sources must be shown conclusively to exist. It is not enough simply to vaguely state that they must exist. FOARP (talk) 22:53, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. This can't be kept in its current state, regardless of who's checking where. It's one of the worse Lugstubs in existence. Geschichte (talk) 06:49, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lucas Kubr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)

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Contested redirect without improvement. If WP:NFOOTY still applied, would meet that requirement, but searches did not turn up the type of in-depth coverage to show they meet WP:GNG, just stat pages. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:55, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:55, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Czech Republic-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 17:56, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• No opinion on whether he's notable, but @Onel5969: may I suggest that if you come across an active non-notable footballer, you take it to AFD or PROD rather than BLAR as you previously did here? Footballers often move between lots of teams, so redirecting it to the one the subject is at presently could quickly become outdated and incorrect. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 22:55, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Per Das osmnezz sources. I couldn't see the paywalled ones, but the rest seem satisfactory to me. Svartner (talk) 23:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete – The sources presented are primary sources, and he only played one match of professional level in Norway. ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 11:23, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Plus twenty in the Czech second tier... FromCzech (talk) 13:03, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 12:05, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found which show significant coverage please ping me. GiantSnowman 12:09, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per sources below which (AGF) seemingly show notability. GiantSnowman 13:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - @Svartner:, @GiantSnowman:, @Clariniie: bruh I found [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], among many more Czech and Norwegiajn sources in a few mins. Young player with ongoing career and many sources and 20+ fully pro games. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 20:38, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - "Bruh?" You know Q+A interviews are not acceptable for passing GNG yet you insist on providing them as sources at AFD. In your "few mins" search you've managed to link the same an.no article twice. (BTW what's behind the paywall? Can you tell us what is contains?) Dougal18 (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I can't get past the paywall either, but the headline reads: "Tough months for Lucas (20). I don't blame anyone." The second heading reads "Lucas Kubr had to have ankle surgery last fall. Now he's getting better and better every day." So it looks like a mix of news reporting of the slow return to form of a player with an injury, and interview with him ("I don't blame anyone" clearly being his words). The source is primary on one count or the other. I don't see how that can be counted towards notability. Sirfurboy (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sirfurboy:, @Clariniie:, Idk how secondary coverage combined with interview would not count... using that black and white logic all newspaper/magazine interviews mixed with secondary coverage with anybody (like [7] or [8]) would not be counted towards anything... First source: ("Lucas Kubr is now showing it in Brno, where he found his first Czech contract at the age of 20 with second-league Zbrojovka. It came after a two-year stint in Norwegian Bodö/Glimt, for which he is grateful, but he did not want to be dragged off the substitutes' bench any longer... Both as a person and as a football player, Lucas Kubr grew up in the family of Prague native Martin Kubr in Belgium near Genk, in a region crazy about cycling... He didn't enjoy pedaling. But he was fascinated by football"), Second source: ("He is finally enjoying football again, and to a significant extent. Lucas Kubr desperately needed a lot of time on the pitch. After a season in which he played only a minimum of matches for the Norwegian team Bodo/Glimt, the left-back only welcomed the summer offer from Zbrojovka. He plays regularly for the Brno club, often in the starting lineup, and on Friday he even enjoyed his first goal in South Moravia against Slavia B. It was enough for a 1:1 draw. The 20-year-old player has mixed memories of his time at the elite Norwegian club. He gained valuable experience from an interesting destination, and at the beginning of last season it looked like he could make a significant impact. He started Bodo/Glimt's journey in the preliminary rounds of the European Conference League on the bench, from which he also watched the successful double match against Bohemians Prague, but that almost ended Kubra's anabasis in the first team. He only played in two cup matches, only collecting starts for the Norwegian club's reserve team. He welcomed his summer return to the Czech Republic, even though he is not currently experiencing many happy moments with Zbrojovka. The Brno team is still stuck in the relegation positions in the second league"), Third source just from the section without paywall: ("Grandma is from Palermo. Mom is Belgian, dad is from Prague, aunt is German. He was born near Genk, Belgium, and plays above the Arctic Circle in Norway... he rushed to Prague to visit his grandfather, who lives alone in a large house above Smíchov"), Fourth source: ("He lives an extraordinary life. With a Czech father, an Italian mother, a birthplace in Belgium, a current position in Norway beyond the Arctic Circle and a secret desire to become the new David Jurásek. Lucas Kubr (19), do you know him? The fast left-back from Bodo/Glimt was only recently discovered for domestic football by coach Radek Bejbl. The native of the Flemish city of Tongeren is an option for Jurásek's position in the newly formed U21 national team for Jan Suchopárek... Attention, a few days ago the youngster was close to being loaned out to the Czech league, according to iSport information specifically in České Budějovice. But the whole thing is said to have fallen through. It is still possible that the nice guy Lucas Kubr will arrive in the Czech Republic at the beginning of August with the Norwegian team for the rematch of the second preliminary round of the Conference League at Letná against Bohemians. Even if as a substitute"), and the fifth and sixth sources definitely have secondary coverage behind paywall. On top of this I can even find more sources and he will definiftely get more as his nascent pro and international career progresses. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 23:58, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - The added sources are just match reporting and other primary reporting. For GNG we need multiple independent reliable secondary sources. We don't have those. I am a little troubled by a !vote that says "AGF seemingly show notability". At AfD we need to be discussing and reading the sources. Sirfurboy (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that we need multiple secondary SIGCOV to meet WP:GNG. Even just one provided is still too weak to establish notability. By the way, did you mean passing mention in match reports? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 11:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for the comment. In answer to your question, it is passing anyway, but no - the problem is that even if you have a match report that has something that scrapes through SIGCOV by describing a good game that the player had, the account of the match is a primary source. Someone has watched the match and written down what they saw. The very definition of a primary source. Many people seem to assume that such accounts show notability (and such people have perhaps never !voted to delete an article in any AfD ever), but notability is shown when someone takes such accounts and writes a source that synthesises them to tell us something biographical of the player. For instance, if someone takes multiple accounts and describes how the player pioneered a new attack, or somesuch, then the synthesis and biographical account will be a secondary source demonstrating that the player is not just a player but a notable one. Sirfurboy (talk) 12:31, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See what I wrote above. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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