Svetlana Velmar-Janković

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Per WP:NEXIST, adequate sourcing has been identified in English. As an aside, since the Chinese sourcing being cited is dependent on machine translation, some caution may need to be used regarding those works and their reliability. Goldsztajn (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Meteor hammer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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There are no decent sources for this that I saw, certainly no reliable/acceptable ones, and none are included in the article, which is just a bunch of OR. Drmies (talk) 04:58, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Martial arts and China. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• I checked under the purported Chinese name. The Chinese book of C# programming, using a martial arts computer game as an example, that turned up early in the results was not a source. But it was in amongst page after page of books with scantily clad manga figures on the covers that were definitely not sources. I don't know what you have stumbled upon, Drmies, but the books results tell me that it is fantasy and not reality. Yes, I bloody well am judging said books by their covers.

  Checking the article talk page I see that people have challenged this for being video game manual fantasy since 2006. Checking the edit history I see that it has been variously sourced to Everything2, and exemplifed by counterfactuals such as the Kill Bill movie series and — Yes. — by anime. The zh:流星錘] article has just two discoverable sources: ISBN 7500060874 I have no access to, although from the citation in that article it seems that it is as suspect a source as the only source cited in this article back in its 2005 incarnation, and ISBN 9789866712210 is explicitly a book of fantasy weapons from a Taiwanese publisher of fantasy books.

  So it looks like Wikipedia has been promoting fantasy as fact for 20 years, again.

  Uncle G (talk) 09:52, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  To add to this: I checked out the images. One is a picture created by a user who appears to be as historical arms enthusiast. The others stem from Flickr, where a private collector named Gary Todd has uploaded images of his collection.

  Considering that Todd apparently owns a whole pile of these weapons, you'd think we would have at least one image from a museum collection and/or verified by a historian.

  Now there are apparently real historical illustrations of this weapon: https://theravenswoodacademy.com/new-page-69

  Not that that by itself would be sufficient for an article. Cortador (talk) 11:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Anyway, delete unless credible sourcing can be shown. Cortador (talk) 03:47, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep since sufficient sourcing has now been provided. Cortador (talk) 09:34, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. English-language sources:
     1. "Wushu Weapons in Common Use". Chinese Olympic Committee. 2003-11-27. Archived from the original on 2004-07-14. Retrieved 2025-04-13.

        This source has been linked since the day the article was created in 2005. The article notes: "The meteor hammer is derived from a kind of hunting weapon of remote times. It consists of either a five-metre-long rope with one hammer at one end, or a two-metre-long rope with one hammer at each end. The hammer is made of bronze and is as big as a duck's egg. A skilful performer can have the rope wrap around his/her neck, chest and back, shoulder and elbow, wrist, legs, feet or waist before unwrapping it to release the hammer with a powerful jerk of the body. In this way, the hammer shoots forth quickly like a meteor, making a deadly impact on the target."

     2. Huang, Fuhua; Fan, Hong, eds. (2019). A History of Chinese Martial Arts. Abingdon, Oxon: Routledge. ISBN 978-1-138-64558-5. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Google Books.

        The book notes: "The meteor hammer was a type of soft weapon. From ancient times, people tied stones to rattans for hunting, which was an early form of the meteor hammer. The Legends, a collection of short stories, document that a Kunlun slave Mo Le killed vicious dogs with the meteor hammer for his master in the Tang dynasty. 122 Another similar type of these soft weapons in this period was the rope-dart, a sharp metal head tied to a rope."

     3. Wang, Guangxi (2012). Chinese Kung Fu. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 41. ISBN 978-0-521-18664-3. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Google Books.

        The book notes: "The meteor hammer is composed of an iron hammer and a long rope. The iron hammers are usually in the shape of a ball, melon or a ball with sharp spikes, and weigh 1.5 to 2.5kg."

  2. Chinese-language sources:
     1. Chang, Zonglin 常宗林; Li, Xukui 李旭奎; Yang, Enhua 杨恩华; Wang, Xiyan 王锡艳; Yu, Jing 于静; Xu, Xu 许旭, eds. (2006). 中国文化导读 [Aspect of Chinese Culture] (in Chinese). Beijing: Tsinghua University Press. p. 41. ISBN 978-7-302-12632-4. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Google Books.

        The book notes: "流星锤 meteor hammer"

     2. Ding, Sudong 丁苏东 (2003). ""流星锤"之研究" [Research on "Meteor Hammer"]. 上海体育大学学报 [Journal of Shanghai University of Sport] (in Chinese) (6). doi:10.16099/j.cnki.jsus.2003.06.026. ISSN 2097-3799. Archived from the original on 2025-04-13. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via CNKI.

        The abstract notes: "以史料为依据,对“流星锤”的起源及历史演变进行综合分析和探讨。并对流星锤在演练过程中所表 现出的动作的连贯性、缠身的巧妙性、打出的突发隐蔽性三个特点,圆周运动、直线运动和弧线运动三种运动 轨迹以及流星锤和绳标之间的区别加以论述。"

        From Google Translate: "Based on historical data, this paper conducts a comprehensive analysis and discussion on the origin and historical evolution of "Meteor Hammer". It also discusses the three characteristics of the meteor hammer in the process of practice: the continuity of action, the cleverness of entanglement, and the suddenness and concealment of the attack, the three movement trajectories of circular motion, linear motion and arc motion, and the difference between the meteor hammer and the rope mark."

     3. Su, Jiguang 宿继光 (2007). ""流星锤"传播策略研究" [Research on the Communication Strategy of "Meteor Hammer"]. 武术研究 [Wushu Studies] (in Chinese) (10). doi:10.3969/j.issn.1004-5643.2007.10.014. Archived from the original on 2025-04-13. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Wanfang Data [zh].

        The abstract notes: "文章根据"流星锤"技术特点,基于"流星锤"的发展现状,对"流星锤"发展传播的策略进行了研究,尝试性地制定出合理可行的传播方案.本研究的目的在于避免濒危武术拳种的灭亡,将现代科学技术与传统武术有机结合,通过"流星锤"的个案研究为传统武术的发展提供借鉴,寻找出一条适合传统武术发展的道路,使传统武术在发展过程中突破陈规,与时俱进,提高传播效率,造福人类社会,增加科技含量,立足于世界体育之林."

        From Google Translate: "Based on the technical characteristics of "Meteor Hammer" and the current development status of "Meteor Hammer", this paper studies the development and communication strategy of "Meteor Hammer" and tries to formulate a reasonable and feasible communication plan. The purpose of this study is to avoid the extinction of endangered martial arts, organically combine modern science and technology with traditional martial arts, and provide reference for the development of traditional martial arts through the case study of "Meteor Hammer", find a path suitable for the development of traditional martial arts, so that traditional martial arts can break through the old rules in the process of development, keep pace with the times, improve communication efficiency, benefit human society, increase scientific and technological content, and gain a foothold in the world of sports."

     4. Ding, Sudong 丁苏东 (1999). ""流星锤"的起源及历史演变" [The Origin and Evolvement of "Meteor Hammer"]. 体育学研究 [Journal of Sports Research] (in Chinese) (30). ISSN 2096-5656. Archived from the original on 2025-04-13. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Wanfang Data [zh].

        The abstract notes: "以大量史料为依据,对"流星锤"的起源及历史演变进行综合分析和探讨."流星锤"起源于原始社会旧石器时代狩猎工具的"飞石索".在新石器时代中晚期,逐步用于练武活动和战争,而成为真正意义上的"流星锤".在明清武术鼎盛时期,"流星锤"的演练套路已趋成熟,并得到了极大的发展"

        From Google Translate: "Based on a large amount of historical data, this paper conducts a comprehensive analysis and discussion on the origin and historical evolution of "Meteor Hammer". "Meteor Hammer" originated from the "flying stone rope" hunting tool of the Paleolithic Age in primitive society. In the middle and late Neolithic Age, it was gradually used for martial arts training and war, and became a "meteor hammer" in the true sense. During the heyday of martial arts in the Ming and Qing Dynasties, the practice routines of "Meteor Hammer" had matured and had been greatly developed"

     5. Li, Wenbo 李文博; Li, Dan 李聃 (2017). "传统器械流星锤挂肘动作的技术分析" [Technical Analysis of the Elbow Hanging Movement of the Traditional Weapon Meteor Hammer]. 运动 [Sport] (in Chinese) (12). doi:10.3969/j.issn.1674-151x.2017.12.080. ISSN 1674-151X. Archived from the original on 2025-04-13. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Wanfang Data [zh].

        The abstract notes: "流星锤是我国古兵暗器之一,它历史悠久,源远流长.最早起源于原始社会狩猎工具的飞石索,经各朝代的演变逐渐形成了现代的流星锤.本文通过文献资料法、图像采集法、比较分析法等研究方法,对流星锤项目核心典型动作挂肘技术进行研究,系统地对流星锤挂肘动作进行分析、分类与分解,并制订出5种学习和提高挂肘动作的练习方法.通过对传统器械流星锤挂肘动作的技术分析,可以大幅度提高流星锤套路的整体质量、击打的准确度及为以后的教学与训练提供有利地参考,以期为流星锤今后更好地发展提供理论支持."

        From Google Translate: "Meteor Hammer is one of the ancient hidden weapons in my country, and it has a long history. It originated from the flying stone rope of the hunting tool in primitive society, and gradually formed the modern meteor hammer through the evolution of various dynasties. This paper studies the elbow hanging technology of the core typical action of the meteor hammer project through the research methods of literature data method, image acquisition method, comparative analysis method, etc., and systematically analyzes the meteor hammer elbow hanging movement. Analyze, classify and decompose, and formulate 5 training methods for learning and improving the elbow hanging action. Through the technical analysis of the traditional weapon meteor hammer elbow hanging action, the overall quality of the meteor hammer routine and the accuracy of the strike can be greatly improved, and a favorable reference can be provided for future teaching and training, in order to provide theoretical support for the better development of the meteor hammer in the future."

     6. Wang, Xiaowen 王晓雯; Liu, Qinghua 刘清华; Li, Yanjun 李艳君; Xu, Jialu 许嘉璐; Gu, Kaikai 谷凯凯; Xu, Zhaohui 徐朝晖 (2020). "传统武术软器械流星锤十字披红动作技术分析" [Technical Analysis of Traditional Martial Arts Soft Weapon: Meteor Hammer "Cross Red-Draping" Movement]. 武术研究 [Wushu Studies] (in Chinese) (5). doi:10.3969/j.issn.1004-5643.2020.05.027. ISSN 2096-1839. Archived from the original on 2025-04-13. Retrieved 2025-04-13 – via Wanfang Data [zh].

        The abstract notes: "流星锤起源于古代原始社会,旧石器时期狩猎工具的飞石索,到如今逐渐演变成为流星锤,是中华武术传统软器械之一.十字披红为流星锤套路当中上肢缠绕类的核心技法,其动作有较难的身体协调性和技巧性.通过文献资料法、图像采集法、技术分析法,对传统武术软器械流星锤十字披红的动作进行分析,提供训练方法.通过对传统武术软器械流星锤十字披红动作的技术分析,为习练者提供正确的技术动作,提高流星锤套路的质量和水平,提供有力的参考."

        From Google Translate: "Meteor hammer originated in ancient primitive society. The flying stone rope used as hunting tools in the Paleolithic Age has gradually evolved into a meteor hammer, which is one of the traditional soft weapons of Chinese martial arts. The cross-shaped red is the core technique of the upper limb entanglement in the meteor hammer routine, and its movements have difficult body coordination and skills. Through the literature method, image acquisition method, and technical analysis method, the movement of the traditional martial arts soft weapon meteor hammer cross-shaped red is analyzed, and training methods are provided. Through the technical analysis of the traditional martial arts soft weapon meteor hammer cross-shaped red movement, the correct technical movements are provided for practitioners, the quality and level of the meteor hammer routine are improved, and a powerful reference is provided."

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow meteor hammer simplified Chinese: 流星锤; traditional Chinese: 流星錘; pinyin: liúxīng chuí to pass Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Primary criteria, which requires "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard (talk) 08:35, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Adding that the other names listed in the article are probably 大锤, 飞锤, and 龙圈 in Chinese. I get results for the second term but not the third, which I suppose we should remove as original research. The first usually means "sledgehammer". Hopefully this helps with the search for sources. Toadspike [Talk] 07:58, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.