Svetlana Velmar-Janković

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:49, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dark Lady (character) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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There is no evidence that this is a legitimate stock character, and most of the article is about the Shakespeare character (which already has its own article at Dark Lady (Shakespeare)). _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 19:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The stereotype appears in many other works besides Shakespeare. For example, here's another source and yet more. Andrew D. (talk) 21:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently there is a tragic mulatto article for that character archetype. Making this article still superflous._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 22:22, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • The mulatto is just one sort of dark lady. The substantial nature of that article, as well as the Shakespeare case, further demonstrates that we need this page as a broad concept article to disambiguate all the various examples and sub-types. As another example of these, see this paper about the dark ladies of Edgar Allan Poe – women who are doomed, dying or dead. Andrew D. (talk) 09:19, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrew Davidson: It is WP:OR to connect one author's "Dark Lady" character (in this case, Leslie Fiedler's or Edgar Allan Poe's) with another's (Shakespeare's) without a source that explicitly makes the comparison. Their having the same "name" is not enough. If you want to completely throw out everything in the article and rewrite it to compare Poe's various Dark Ladies to each other, using the Narendra source, that would be fine, but you could do that with the page being deleted as well. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, juuxtaposition of content under the same heading is not OR; it's our normal way of editing. The guideline WP:BROAD tells us that bringing such material together is best practise. Andrew D. (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear... please tell me you are joking...? WP:SYNTH is quite explicit that drawing original comparisons between literary "characters" based on their being discussed in sources using the same words (but without the sources directly comparing them) is disallowed. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As Hijiri said, mashing all literary mentions of a "Dark Lady" would violate WP:SYNTH. If a particular author's use of a Dark Lady character is notable, then it should have its own article, not a broad concept article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 13:49, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 00:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The Dark Lord (fiction) and Dark Lady are regular components of fiction. Ample references to prove that. Dream Focus 11:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I added in a reference a song by Cher about a dark lady, called Dark Lady. Sifting through various results in Google news, I see them refer to Hela from Marvel's Thor series as a dark lady. [1] Dream Focus 18:06, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dream Focus: Use of "lady" as a noun-adjunct (they actually refer to her as a "dark lady villain") is clearly unrelated. She is a villain who is both dark and a lady. Please be more careful with sourcing, and stop !voting down AFDs based solely on principle while trying to find "sources" that might seem to support your principle if other editors don't actually click on them. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On top of that, the way the fictional works in question use "lady", it is obviously the female equivalent of "gentleman", not the female equivalent of "lord"; I've been an on-and-off fantasy junkie for most of my life (I'm 29 now; my first time playing a Dungeons & Dragons-based video game was when I was 11) and have rarely encountered "Dark Ladies" -- if they exist at all, they are surely a deliberate and obvious inversion of the Dark Lord trope. Even the Korean film review linked does not refer to Hela as a "Dark Lady" but as a villain who is both dark and a lady (in the sense of simply being female -- it's not very PC, but a close read shows a bunch of English errors, and the writer's other articles are not much better). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:12, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Dark Lady (Shakespeare) already exists, and everything else in the article except for a single line about Latinas is unsourced (and for some reason the GBooks link there is returning an error, although I suspect, given that no page number is given, that it doesn't actually talk about a literary archetype called a "Dark Lady" and just says "shadowy woman" or something like that). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:09, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete This seems to be an article synthesized from a combination of uses of terms that would actually be fit under the Shakespeare term, the Tragic mulatto article, or simply characters with that name, rather than coverage of the actual independent topic as a notable stock character concept.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• It is easy to find coverage of the matter as a general concept rather than as a specific example. For example, here's yet another source: The Dark Lady. Andrew D. (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrew Davidson: If you want to rewrite the article to be about something completely different (in this latest case, the dilithic "Dark Lady" motif from Italian baroque poetry), fire ahead. It doesn't change the fact that your source is not about a "character" and that the article as is is nothing but SYNTH that has nothing to do with any of the sources you and DF have located. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete there doesn't seem to be enough sources to prove that this is a notable character in the same way as the Dark Lord is. The term Lady in the examples given is not used in the same way as Lord but rather as an analogy for woman. Dom from Paris (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.